Denikin
(Source FR) https://www.letemps.ch/mo[...]sais-juriste-appris-droit
Emmanuel Macron:
Since our last conversation, tensions have continued to grow and you know my commitment and determination to continue the dialogue. I would like you to give me first your reading of the situation and perhaps in a rather direct way, as we both do, tell me what your intentions are. And then afterwards, I wanted to try to see if there were still useful actions to be taken and make some proposals to you.
Vladimir Putin:
What can I say? You can see for yourself what is going on. You and Chancellor Scholz told me that Zelensky was ready to make a move, that he had prepared a bill to implement the Minsk Agreements. [...] In fact, our dear colleague, Mr. Zelensky, is doing nothing. He is lying to you. [...] I don't know if you heard his statement yesterday in which he said that Ukraine must have access to atomic weapons.
(Diplomatic adviser Emmanuel Bonne: "But no, anything.")
I also heard your comments at the press conference in Kiev on February 8. You said that the Minsk Agreements must be revised, and I quote, "so that they are enforceable."
(Macron's advisors: "No, he didn't say that," "I'll tell him not to get into a discussion of details with him.").
Emmanuel Macron:
Vladimir, first of all one thing, I never said that the Minsk Agreements should be revised. I never said it either in Berlin, Kiev or Paris. I said that they should be applied, that things should be respected and I do not have the same reading of the last few days as you.
Vladimir Putin:
Look Emmanuel, I don't understand your problem with the separatists. At least they did everything right, under our insistence, to open a constructive dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities.
Emmanuel Macron:
Regarding what you said, Vladimir, several remarks: first, the Minsk Agreements are a dialogue with you, you are absolutely right. In this context, it is not expected that the basis of the discussion is a text submitted by the separatists. So when your negotiator tries to force the Ukrainians to discuss on the basis of roadmaps of the separatists, he is not respecting the Minsk Agreements. It is not separatists who are going to make proposals on Ukrainian laws!
Vladimir Putin:
Of course, we have a completely different reading of the situation. During our last meeting, I reminded you and even read articles 9, 11 and 12 of the Minsk Agreements.
Emmanuel Macron:
I have them in front of me! It is clearly written that the government of Ukraine - paragraph 9, etc. - is proposing, and that it is in this way that the government of Ukraine will be able to take action. - It is written that the Government of Ukraine - paragraph 9, etc. - proposes, and that it is in consultation and agreement with the representatives of certain districts of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, within the framework of the tripartite contact group. This is exactly what we propose to do. So I don't know where your lawyer learned the law (a counselor smiles). I just look at the texts and try to apply them! And I don't know which lawyer will be able to tell you that in a sovereign country, the laws are proposed by separatist groups and not by the democratically elected authorities.
Vladimir Putin:
(Firm and annoyed tone) This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power by a coup, people were burned alive, it was a bloodbath and Zelensky is one of the people responsible.
Listen to me: the principle of dialogue is to take into account the interests of the other side. The proposals exist, the separatists, as you call them, have passed them on to the Ukrainians, but they have not received any response. Where is the dialogue?
Read also: Dmitry Muratov, who sold his Nobel for Ukraine: "Russia had a future, many think it no longer has one"
Emmanuel Macron:
But because, as I just told you, we don't care about the separatists' proposals. What we are asking them to do is to react to the texts of the Ukrainians, and we must do things in that direction because that is the law! What you have just said casts doubt, in a way, on your own willingness to respect the Minsk Agreements, if you judge that you are facing non-legitimate and terrorist authorities.
Vladimir Putin:
(Still very annoyed) Listen to me carefully. Do you hear me? I'm telling you again that the separatists, as you call them, have reacted to the proposals of the Ukrainian authorities. They responded but these same authorities did not follow up.
Emmanuel Macron:
So okay: on the basis of their response to the Ukrainian texts, what I propose to you is that we demand from all parties a meeting within the framework of the contact group to continue to move forward. We can ask for this work to be done tomorrow and demand that all the parties involved not adopt an empty chair policy. However, over the last two days, the separatists have not wanted to take part in this discussion. I am going to demand this of Zelensky. Do we agree on this? If we agree, I will launch it and demand a meeting tomorrow.
Vladimir Putin:
So just to be clear, as soon as we hang up, I will study these proposals. But from the beginning, we should have put pressure on the Ukrainians, but no one wanted to do that.
Emmanuel Macron:
But yes, I am doing my utmost to push them, you know that.
Vladimir Putin:
I know, but unfortunately it is not effective.
Emmanuel Macron:
I need you to help me a little (mischievously). The situation on the contact line is very tense. I really called yesterday for Zelensky to calm down. I will tell him again, calm everyone, calm in social networks, calm the Ukrainian armed forces. But what I also see is that you can really call to calm your pre-positioned armed forces. There was a lot of shelling yesterday. If you want to give dialogue a chance, you have to calm down the game in the region. How do you see the military exercises developing?
Vladimir Putin:
The exercises are going according to plan.
Emmanuel Macron:
So they end tonight, right?
Vladimir Putin:
Yes, probably tonight, and we will certainly leave a military presence on the border until the situation in Donbass calms down. The discussion will be taken in consultation with the defense and foreign ministries.
Emmanuel Macron:
Okay. Vladimir, I say to you very sincerely, for me, putting the discussions in the right framework and avoiding tensions is an absolute prerequisite. And what matters to me - and I'm really asking you to do this - is that we get the situation under control. That's the first pillar. And I'm counting on you a lot. Don't give in to any provocation in the hours and days to come.
I wanted to make two concrete proposals to you. The first is to organize a meeting in the next few days in Geneva between you and President Biden. I spoke to him on Friday evening and asked him if I could make this proposal to you. He told me to tell you that he was ready. President Biden has also been thinking about ways to credibly de-escalate the situation, to take into account your demands and to address very clearly the issue of NATO and Ukraine. Tell me the date that is convenient for you.
Vladimir Putin:
Thank you very much Immanuel. It is always a great pleasure and honor to talk with your European counterparts as well as with the United States. And I always have a great pleasure to dialogue with you because we are in a relationship of trust. So, Emmanuel, I propose to you to reverse things. First of all, you have to prepare this meeting beforehand. Only afterwards can we talk because if we come here like this, to talk about everything and nothing, we will be blamed again.
Emmanuel Macron:
But can we say today, there, at the end of these discussions, that we agree on the principle? I would like a clear answer from you on this. I understand your reticence about a date, but are you ready to go ahead and say today, "I want a two-person meeting with the Americans, then extended to the Europeans" or not?
Vladimir Putin:
It's a proposal that deserves to be taken into account and if you want us to be well aligned on how to formulate it, I suggest you ask our advisors to call each other to agree [...] but know that on the principle, I agree.
Emmanuel Macron:
Very well, you confirm to me that you agree on the principle. I propose that our teams [...] try to finalize a joint text, a kind of communiqué at the end of this call.
Vladimir Putin:
Not to hide anything from you, I wanted to go play ice hockey because right now I'm talking to you from the gym before I start physical exercises. I will call my advisors first.
Emmanuel Macron:
Thank you in any case Vladimir. We stay in touch in real time. As soon as there's something, you call me.
Vladimir Putin:
Thank you Mr. President (in French).
Emmanuel Macron:
Since our last conversation, tensions have continued to grow and you know my commitment and determination to continue the dialogue. I would like you to give me first your reading of the situation and perhaps in a rather direct way, as we both do, tell me what your intentions are. And then afterwards, I wanted to try to see if there were still useful actions to be taken and make some proposals to you.
Vladimir Putin:
What can I say? You can see for yourself what is going on. You and Chancellor Scholz told me that Zelensky was ready to make a move, that he had prepared a bill to implement the Minsk Agreements. [...] In fact, our dear colleague, Mr. Zelensky, is doing nothing. He is lying to you. [...] I don't know if you heard his statement yesterday in which he said that Ukraine must have access to atomic weapons.
(Diplomatic adviser Emmanuel Bonne: "But no, anything.")
I also heard your comments at the press conference in Kiev on February 8. You said that the Minsk Agreements must be revised, and I quote, "so that they are enforceable."
(Macron's advisors: "No, he didn't say that," "I'll tell him not to get into a discussion of details with him.").
Emmanuel Macron:
Vladimir, first of all one thing, I never said that the Minsk Agreements should be revised. I never said it either in Berlin, Kiev or Paris. I said that they should be applied, that things should be respected and I do not have the same reading of the last few days as you.
Vladimir Putin:
Look Emmanuel, I don't understand your problem with the separatists. At least they did everything right, under our insistence, to open a constructive dialogue with the Ukrainian authorities.
Emmanuel Macron:
Regarding what you said, Vladimir, several remarks: first, the Minsk Agreements are a dialogue with you, you are absolutely right. In this context, it is not expected that the basis of the discussion is a text submitted by the separatists. So when your negotiator tries to force the Ukrainians to discuss on the basis of roadmaps of the separatists, he is not respecting the Minsk Agreements. It is not separatists who are going to make proposals on Ukrainian laws!
Vladimir Putin:
Of course, we have a completely different reading of the situation. During our last meeting, I reminded you and even read articles 9, 11 and 12 of the Minsk Agreements.
Emmanuel Macron:
I have them in front of me! It is clearly written that the government of Ukraine - paragraph 9, etc. - is proposing, and that it is in this way that the government of Ukraine will be able to take action. - It is written that the Government of Ukraine - paragraph 9, etc. - proposes, and that it is in consultation and agreement with the representatives of certain districts of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, within the framework of the tripartite contact group. This is exactly what we propose to do. So I don't know where your lawyer learned the law (a counselor smiles). I just look at the texts and try to apply them! And I don't know which lawyer will be able to tell you that in a sovereign country, the laws are proposed by separatist groups and not by the democratically elected authorities.
Vladimir Putin:
(Firm and annoyed tone) This is not a democratically elected government. They came to power by a coup, people were burned alive, it was a bloodbath and Zelensky is one of the people responsible.
Listen to me: the principle of dialogue is to take into account the interests of the other side. The proposals exist, the separatists, as you call them, have passed them on to the Ukrainians, but they have not received any response. Where is the dialogue?
Read also: Dmitry Muratov, who sold his Nobel for Ukraine: "Russia had a future, many think it no longer has one"
Emmanuel Macron:
But because, as I just told you, we don't care about the separatists' proposals. What we are asking them to do is to react to the texts of the Ukrainians, and we must do things in that direction because that is the law! What you have just said casts doubt, in a way, on your own willingness to respect the Minsk Agreements, if you judge that you are facing non-legitimate and terrorist authorities.
Vladimir Putin:
(Still very annoyed) Listen to me carefully. Do you hear me? I'm telling you again that the separatists, as you call them, have reacted to the proposals of the Ukrainian authorities. They responded but these same authorities did not follow up.
Emmanuel Macron:
So okay: on the basis of their response to the Ukrainian texts, what I propose to you is that we demand from all parties a meeting within the framework of the contact group to continue to move forward. We can ask for this work to be done tomorrow and demand that all the parties involved not adopt an empty chair policy. However, over the last two days, the separatists have not wanted to take part in this discussion. I am going to demand this of Zelensky. Do we agree on this? If we agree, I will launch it and demand a meeting tomorrow.
Vladimir Putin:
So just to be clear, as soon as we hang up, I will study these proposals. But from the beginning, we should have put pressure on the Ukrainians, but no one wanted to do that.
Emmanuel Macron:
But yes, I am doing my utmost to push them, you know that.
Vladimir Putin:
I know, but unfortunately it is not effective.
Emmanuel Macron:
I need you to help me a little (mischievously). The situation on the contact line is very tense. I really called yesterday for Zelensky to calm down. I will tell him again, calm everyone, calm in social networks, calm the Ukrainian armed forces. But what I also see is that you can really call to calm your pre-positioned armed forces. There was a lot of shelling yesterday. If you want to give dialogue a chance, you have to calm down the game in the region. How do you see the military exercises developing?
Vladimir Putin:
The exercises are going according to plan.
Emmanuel Macron:
So they end tonight, right?
Vladimir Putin:
Yes, probably tonight, and we will certainly leave a military presence on the border until the situation in Donbass calms down. The discussion will be taken in consultation with the defense and foreign ministries.
Emmanuel Macron:
Okay. Vladimir, I say to you very sincerely, for me, putting the discussions in the right framework and avoiding tensions is an absolute prerequisite. And what matters to me - and I'm really asking you to do this - is that we get the situation under control. That's the first pillar. And I'm counting on you a lot. Don't give in to any provocation in the hours and days to come.
I wanted to make two concrete proposals to you. The first is to organize a meeting in the next few days in Geneva between you and President Biden. I spoke to him on Friday evening and asked him if I could make this proposal to you. He told me to tell you that he was ready. President Biden has also been thinking about ways to credibly de-escalate the situation, to take into account your demands and to address very clearly the issue of NATO and Ukraine. Tell me the date that is convenient for you.
Vladimir Putin:
Thank you very much Immanuel. It is always a great pleasure and honor to talk with your European counterparts as well as with the United States. And I always have a great pleasure to dialogue with you because we are in a relationship of trust. So, Emmanuel, I propose to you to reverse things. First of all, you have to prepare this meeting beforehand. Only afterwards can we talk because if we come here like this, to talk about everything and nothing, we will be blamed again.
Emmanuel Macron:
But can we say today, there, at the end of these discussions, that we agree on the principle? I would like a clear answer from you on this. I understand your reticence about a date, but are you ready to go ahead and say today, "I want a two-person meeting with the Americans, then extended to the Europeans" or not?
Vladimir Putin:
It's a proposal that deserves to be taken into account and if you want us to be well aligned on how to formulate it, I suggest you ask our advisors to call each other to agree [...] but know that on the principle, I agree.
Emmanuel Macron:
Very well, you confirm to me that you agree on the principle. I propose that our teams [...] try to finalize a joint text, a kind of communiqué at the end of this call.
Vladimir Putin:
Not to hide anything from you, I wanted to go play ice hockey because right now I'm talking to you from the gym before I start physical exercises. I will call my advisors first.
Emmanuel Macron:
Thank you in any case Vladimir. We stay in touch in real time. As soon as there's something, you call me.
Vladimir Putin:
Thank you Mr. President (in French).
